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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 43 post(s) |
Random Womble
Minmatar
Master Miners
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Posted - 2008.11.28 23:39:00 -
[1]
Not allowing logistics modules is silly TBH the tourny is about teamwork. As for BSs just sitting there with 2 remote reps each so what a rook can jam 2 BS (3 if lucky) the rest of a team could out DPS the rest and they are hardly likely to be able to come up with a sustainable setup for the whole of a fight. All your doing is reducing the possible options so you will see endless samey samey setups yes you get that to an extent anyway sometimes but the last tourny there were plenty of surprises and one off setups that were effective even in the later stages plus there tended to be a rock, paper, scissors thing going on.
Ways to kill logistics:
Jam
Pure DPS
Neut (yes if its dual gaurdian or dual basilisk thats hard but still possible and just make it very had to field dual logistics as for BSs neuting works rather well)
That should be enough no need to remove a module and by doing so making 4 ships (especially IMHO the scimitar and oneiros) next to useless.
Also with regards to the dates i dont suppose their is a chance of putting it back a week or two as many of us studying at uni have exams around that time.
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Random Womble
Minmatar
Master Miners
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Posted - 2008.11.29 00:20:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: FugginNutz
I, for one, support T2 sentries. Some Gallente folk I know have over 6mil sp in just combat drones alone, so why not allow them the opportunity to use the skills they spent months training for?
Ya'll ***** when the PVP tourney wasn't going to be held but when CCP decides to have it, ya'll ***** about the rules. 
The rules set by CCP are simple. Adapt or Die. 
You mean like how some people max out their logistics abilitys (crazy i know but some of us do) dont get me wrong thats no why i disagree with the logistics thing i can fly other ships maxed out.
Also i was just wondering about the cost of recon ships i mean sure the curse might have a use and the rook but i dont see the huginn/rapier (especially post speed nerf) or the arazu/lach being much use and even the curse and rook without logistics are so paper thin i really dont think they are worth 16 points when other T2 cruisers are so much lower oynx for example could have huge HP tank like a beast and ignore the curses tracking disruptors while neuting has little effect yes ok there will be other ships there doing DPS but still relatively recons are not that useful without logistics.
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Random Womble
Minmatar
Master Miners
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Posted - 2008.11.30 00:06:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Ruiryu
Edited by: Ruiryu on 29/11/2008 20:09:53
Originally by: CCP Claw
Look at this thread...
"9 Drakes will be OP"
"9 Ishtars will be OP"
"ECM will be everywhere"
"Marauders are too OP for their points"
I think its pretty clear that there are a lot of possible setups going on here.
I agree with you Claw. With this new point system CCP has set up it allows people to be VERY creative. People just need to start thinking out side of the box and stop using the first thing that comes to mind. If people were to stop and clearly think about the possibilities they will see there is a lot of things that they can do with this tourny that they couldn't in others.
Surely by reducing the number of options (by taking away logistics) avilable you are reducing creativity. The maruaders thing is just because they are better than T1 BSs in every way except sensorstrength and thats not hard to correct. Alot of the fights that were considered highlights of the last tournament (most of noterietys ones for example) contained logistics and there were some fun explosive setups to get around the dual logistics who can forget Huns demolition of a dual guardian team with 10 ruptures that was tense, close, exciting and creative. Just making dual logistics hard to field would be enough and tbh if logisitcs were say 30 points and someone fielded 2 and 2 BSs they would still struggle against 5 BSs due to the sheer damage they could be taking (5 gank BS with Artys or similar high volley damage anyone?). Tho i would admit they would probably need to be around 32 points so dual log dual battleship was impossible
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Random Womble
Minmatar
Master Miners
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Posted - 2008.11.30 14:01:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Random Womble on 30/11/2008 14:02:21
Originally by: Pistonbroke
quote=Sigras]
Until the defenseless logistics ships get killed because they have no tank . . .
Yes, of course you cant fit a dual rep setup on a Guardian, or a large Booster II on a basilisk.
And no, of course they don't have enough cap recharge to support running such a tank..
You can fit dual reps or large or even XL booster but the tank wont be that good even still and you dont need a logistics for the cap tranfer really since yes that was good when it created cap for the logistics to use with its remote reps or occasionaly for a curse now since all tanks are local just 1 maruader with a cap transfer and all those cap boosters in its hold can keep, combined with the other ships own injector, quite happily anoher maruader boosting all day and thats if you even need that at all. The tank on the logistcs wont get near that the DPS a maruader or probably even a HIC could tank and if you fit those spare slots with guns the DPS it does will be minimal oh and only 2 logistics have a cap transfer bonus anyway.
Also to Mindstars "were not disallowing logistics as a tactic just the modules" by disabling those modules you pretty much remove 95% of logistics tactics you also do, especially with the current price in points, make the ships with that name attached to them redundant. |
Random Womble
Minmatar
Master Miners
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Posted - 2008.12.01 21:22:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Random Womble on 01/12/2008 21:24:16
Edited by: Random Womble on 01/12/2008 21:22:43
Originally by: CCP Mindstar
Ultimately, I really am not a fan of banning any module or tactic - and if it were a tournament that focused solely on challenging fights for its participants then yes, there is no real reason to have anything banned. The fact of the matter is quite simply that the tournament is not just about the people competing - but also about providing entertainment for the thousands of people watching the tournament online. We need a set of rules here that will be interesting and challenging at the same time.
Logistics is what allows alot of the entertainment. Yes overly heavy logstics can also take away entertainment but it would be possible to that problem without removing the logistics. Discussing it with a corp mate the otherday he said what he thought created the most tention and was the most entertainment value was when its uncertain if a ship is just holding or slowly going down (ie its losing a few slivers of structure inbetween each rep cycle) and if it can survive long enough for its side to lower the dps.
Yes lots of eplosions are pretty yes we dont want fights that last 5 hours untill everyone runs out of ammo but also if every fight last 2 minute and everything is dead its going to cause problems for both you and your presenters and the team organising the matches (imagine all the filler you will need) and its going to get boring in its own way. Even if matches last longer its likely they will be more boring than logistics ones just a case of everyone on one side being jammed and the other having next to no DPS.
Also on another note i still maintain maruaders considerable advantage over T1 BSs means they should be at least equal to the points of faction ones.
T1 vs Maruaders:
Damage is equal
Maruaders get 3 utility slots for cap transfers/smartbombs/ect
Maruaders Active tank much better
Buffer tanks some T1 have advantages but not all
Maruaders get bonuses killing smaller of classes of ships
Maruaders huge cargo allows them to store alot of spare cap boosters + 4 weapons use less ammo so less space taken by that
T1 has a better sensor strength
Maruaders have better cap (in terms of recharge and/or ammount) and amarr/gallente maruaders have to spend less cap firing just 4 guns
The main important ones are Tank, Cargo (because it can play a very impotant role with boosters), Utility Slots, Sensor strength, Cap
Even as that is its still only one downside to 4 upsides (major)
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Random Womble
Minmatar
Master Miners
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Posted - 2008.12.02 23:27:00 -
[6]
Originally by: ArmyOfMe
Edited by: ArmyOfMe on 02/12/2008 20:47:02
can i please get a explenation as to why pirate implants isnt allowed in this tourney?????
god knows how many times i actually have to ask before getting a answer
Originally by: CCP Claw
you think randomness is good, I prefer pilot skill and setup skill to be the determinant factor.
oh, and please remember that not all teams have players with high sp/maxed skills in certain ships so there will always be a randomness factor cause of it
Same reason as before and same reason T2 rigs are not allowed the extortionate costs for smaller alliances when the actual isk rewards possible for winning the tourny probably wont be that huge. If you disagree that rigs are expensive think about fitting 10 ships with 2-3 rigs for each fight your looking at 1-6bil per fight depending on the rigs thats the same as fielding 4 faction BS and some faction frigs every match + some.
As for skills i believe claw is talking about player skill not SP.
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Random Womble
Minmatar
Master Miners
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Posted - 2008.12.03 17:30:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Random Womble on 03/12/2008 17:30:30
Originally by: ArmyOfMe
Originally by: Random Womble
Same reason as before and same reason T2 rigs are not allowed the extortionate costs for smaller alliances when the actual isk rewards possible for winning the tourny probably wont be that huge. If you disagree that rigs are expensive think about fitting 10 ships with 2-3 rigs for each fight your looking at 1-6bil per fight depending on the rigs thats the same as fielding 4 faction BS and some faction frigs every match + some.
considering t2 bs have the same point cost as t1 bs i would say it looks like ccp isnt really thinking to much about the cost.
and when it comes to t2 rigs its something you have to buy new of everytime you loose a ship, not the same with pirate implants
and these days pirate implants are pretty dirt cheap, at least if you look at low grade sets.
and honestly, if a alliance cant afford to buy them then tough luck for them imo
fielding 5 marauders is going to cost you what? 3bil?
Buying 10 pirate implant sets could set you back upto 20bil and then if you have some diffrent people in the scond fight then your going to have to cough up some more isk or perhaps your next setup relys on diffrent pirate implants. There is a big diffrence between buying implants and buying maruaders plus if the maruaders survive anyone can use them the implants are just completely restriced to one character. If you win the tourny you wont spend more on maruaders than you will win in prizes while you might with implants and if you lose well you wont be in long enough to lose that much in maruaders.
Dont get me wrong the tourny is not about the prizes as much any more but then again the costs of the winners atleast should be atleast about even even if overall there is an isk loss for all competitors.
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Random Womble
Minmatar
Master Miners
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Posted - 2008.12.04 00:08:00 -
[8]
Originally by: CCP Mindstar
Originally by: Letifer Deus
Edited by: Letifer Deus on 03/12/2008 19:33:56
Edited by: Letifer Deus on 03/12/2008 19:29:20
I will respond to this:
Originally by: CCP Mindstar
Logistics ships are not the problem here.
It is larger numbers of ships capable of fitting large remote armor / shield reps than in previous tournaments. The main culprit here are battleships, not logistics ships. It is entirely feasible to make a seriously mean spider tank with 5 battleships and no logistics ships. Thus, limiting logistics ships to 1, and not limiting remote modules on BS would do nothing to achieve what we are looking to do.
If logistics ships were the problem, they would have been addressed in a similar way to how you are suggesting, or via points.
With this:
Originally by: Letifer Deus
Or just limit teams to a single RR logi (with ONLY that logi allowed to use RRs)... If your team can't even kill one logistics, it probably deserves to lose.
I still don't understand why this wasn't implemented instead of an all out RR ban. Maybe quoting myself will invoke a response from CCP.
And yes, I'm aware that it won't be changed now, but I still would like to know the thinking on this.
I think you should re-read what you quoted me on. It should answer your question.
Mindstar i think its you that failed to read what he quoted which stated allowing RR _only_ on logistics and not allowing them to be fitted on any other ships eg the BSs you mentioned.
I know claw replied to that saying that you did not want to dictate so many things but in reality you would end up with less restrictions not more. Also since the logistics could not be remote repped they would be vulenerable too so no need to make them have huge points assuming you could only field 1.
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